Increasing the Repertoire of Tunes at the Fish
Should we have an "L-plates" pre-session
(article written by Paul)
In a move to see if we can increase the repertoire of tune sets played at the session, a suggestion has been made to have a "L-plates" pre-session. The idea being to gather a set of tunes for people unfamiliar with them, slow them down so a learning experience can be enjoyed by all.
One suggestion has been to have this L plates session 1/2 an hour before things speed up later in the evening, say 8pm?
I know this would have an impact on the fingerstyle guitar playing that Doug enjoys during at that time. but this is the reason for the website after all. What does everybody think? Doug your fiddle playing is coming on too, would this help?
I am convinced we could arrange to have the music slowed down and placed on the "Music" section of the website so that people can try this at home and then join in during a session environment. I know this has not totally taken off yet, but perhaps that is due to not many people using the music that is on here for such a learning purpose.
What if we were to try a set of 3 tunes, lets say "the Lark in the Morning, the Morning Dew, and the High reel?" as an Irish set and, for example, the "Ewie with the crooked horn, Wellpark and John MacDonalds" for a scottish set?
What do you think? Lets hear your comments....
Does something so organised have to happen? Personally, I agree with MK that the session should be organic and develop of its own accord.
Also, while I think it would be great for the repertoire of tunes and sets to increase, the fisherman's is about the worst possible acoustic and atmosphere to be able to learn tunes, even at 8ish, because of all the cusioning and carpet, the acoustic is dry and dead and swallows up the sound. The exception of course is when you are learning off a loud instrument like Dave's border pipes.
I feel the session experience could be enjoyed much more by both players and onlookers. I personally have lots of tunes I never play and I'm sure the other tune players are in the the same situation.
A good starting point to expand the sessions repertoire would be to organise the tunes we can already play into sets. Once we have these organised in sets we can possibly start learning a few new sets. This could be easily achieved if we could get the players together, each with a list of their tunes and then come to an agreement on which tunes to put in each set. Nobody likes to be sitting with a fiddle or so in their hands hoping someone will start a tune they know, possibly not having the experience or confidence to start a set themselves. I have been there so many times and it's not a good experience. What a difference it would make if all the players knew what tune was coming next in the set rather than everybody trying to fathom out what tune is being played and and what key it is in.
Derek.
I quite agree that there is an issue with a narrow repetoire of tunes being played and it would be great to expand that. I know for one that I would like to be able to play the whistle more in the session but the tunes I know (or knew once upon a time) do not tend to come up much.
It is just a question of working out what the best approach to dealing with this is. I am not convinced that it will be solved by just putting together more sets. It is quite often the repetition of set sets that I find to be a bit tedious. The idea that we play this tune next because we are playing that one now can get boring and is just playing by numbers.
Whether having half an hour at the start of the session to go through these tunes is the answer or not I do not know.
I think the idea of recording tunes at a slower speed for folk to learn is a great idea and an expansion of the new tunes section of the discussion forum might be the answer. If everyone compiled a list of a few tunes that they would like to see in the session then maybe people could then go away and learn them. In that way the tune sets could be mixed up a bit. I know it is not the easiest solution but it might help more in the long term.
Hello this is turning out to be a lively issue. I think a learning session is a great idea. I think a lot of people especially those playing melody instruments would get a lot out of it and it would be fantastic to increase the repetoire of the session. However I don't think it should be in the fish on a thursday night - for a number of reasons. 1, As Jamie pointed out, its a shocking venue for playing music in. With the noise we had last night you woudn't have much chance of learning anything. 2. I don't think its fair to encroach on Dougs fingerstyle guitar at the start - a lot of people really enjoy that. 3. I also think that the start of the night could be used for a more informal learning period if its quiet without having something. Also I think having fixed sets could pose a problem in the sense that - what do you do if someone sits down and plays a tune that you have allocated to a different set? do you play it again as part of your set or would you tell them "that's not how we do it round here boy"
So in short, I'm in favour of learning sessions - great idea. But I think that the fish is too shite a venue for it.
I can see where Alistait and Mike are coming from with their reservations about organised sets. I went to the session when it started in the Ship many years ago and it was probably the best session in Scotland. I was only a spectator in those days but that session ran like clockwork. The McKay twins, who played there regularly still show me the sets that were played in the good ole days and as far as I'm concerned, if it was good enough for some of the best tune players one the scene to play organised sets it is certainly good enough for me.
OK, it can possibly get a bit tedious and we might possibly have to play a tune that's already been played, but for my money that's still a hundred times better than players having to drop out because they don't know the tune and guitarists making up chords as they go along. Derek.
"that's still a hundred times better than players having to drop out because they don't know the tune and guitarists making up chords as they go along."
Whilst it may be putting it a little bit basically that is essentialy what a session is. It is an organic thing that grows and changes with the players in it. I am sure the session in the Ship did not have a set list and, whilst at first I did not think that is what you meant Derek I am now wondering if it is exactly what you meant. If there is a problem with people not feeling included in the session or a perception that people are not being included, if they are not playing then that is something that can and should be addressed but having a list of this set then that set with these exact chords, etc is not the solution.
If people want to introduce a learning session then I am all for it and will happily come along to learn new tunes and introduce other ones myself. I do not really think the Fish is the best venue for this either for a number of reasons:
1. As Mike has said - the noise levels and acoustics of the place.
2. The pub would probably not be happy with us all scratching away at new tunes for half an hour to an hour frightening away the customers.
I also can't speak for the rest of the guitarists but I for one do not "make up chords as I go along". With any tune there is a chord framework that can go with it and differing chord choices and so forth can alter the mood and feel of a tune. I am not about to play "off music" if that is your thoughts and the idea that x chord must be played in y place.
I also think that your interpretation of the session in the Ship may not necessarily be entirely in keeping with how it was (although you were there and I wasn't!). I am not saying that there were not regular sets of tunes that got played. Of course, over time tunes will start to get played together and common sets emerge but no one would have actually sat down in an organised manner and worked these sets out - they will just have emerged naturally. I would argue that The Fish does have sets like this but if it were organised too much then it would limit the opportunities to change things and would actually hamper people in their playing abilities. If a tune from one set has been played earlier and then the set crops up later why not just change the tune and pick a different one rather than having to play the same one because "It always has to follow that tune!" That would make a more interesting session (it is not a performance after all!) and would better equip the members of the session for playing in other sessions around the country at other times.
Now it is turning into a lively issue!!
Nice one Campbell!!
See what you've started!
Keep spreading the love brothers and sisters
You make it sound like we are arguing or shouting at each other. Not so I declare! Surely this is just a "heated debate" as Mrs Merton would say - about something we clearly all believe strongly in?! :-)
Alistair, I get the feeling I have offended you about my comment on guitarists. I hope not, but my apologies if I have. I know some red hot chord players who will readily admit playing a bundle of wrong chords if they don't know the tune. It's just not possibe to hit all the correct chords if you don't know the tune, the same way it's not possibe for me or any other tune player to hit the correct notes on tunes we don't know. Django would have been struggling to do that. It looks like my idea for planned sets is dead in the water but I'll never be convinced it would would be detrimental to the session. Derek.
No, don't worry Derek - you have not offended me. I hope I have not offended you. I realise I was a little brusque.
I will readily admit to having got chords wrong before, particularly in unfamiliar tunes. I would just hope it is not as frequent as it used to be. It is just that I would look at it more as making an educated guess as to how the tune goes and maybe getting it wrong rather than just making it up blind. My point was just that there is a framework to the chord structures - it is not all blind guess work. There are also certain tunes that I really have no clue how to accompany - particularly some of the wierder tunes that tend to crop up in Glasgow. :-S My point is just that there is not just one right way to accompany any tune and different people can interpret it in different ways.
I would also not say that your plan was dead in the water at all. It is just I don't think that the Fish is necessarily the best place for it. It is the obvious course of action to bundle tunes together to play in sets and I know I do it myself (I have played that one set of jigs on the whistle every session for about a month now!!) but I would just hope that the sets would be flexible rather than fixed so that they could ammend if needs be or if desired.
As I said, if people want to get together to swap tunes I would be delighted at the prospect. I am all for learning new tunes. The site here would be a great supplementary resource too for facilitating recordings of tunes and sets. If even two or three people got together and worked out some ideas for additions to the session then played them then over time others should pick them up.
So where does this leave us. How about some volunteers to put further more regular tunes on the music page. Jamie has started this with an excellent selection that is already there. However I can understand that perhaps some of the tunes are not as well known as others. What tunes should we instigate? Suggestions please.
And another thing. Dougs fingerstyle guitar bit. I really love coming down early to try and play tunes with Doug on the guitar. He is an exceptional talent. I am just back from the Ullapool guitar festival and came away inspired to play more fingerstyle stuff. Aswell as new tunes to be added to the repetoire how about other guitar players trying their hand at tunes?????
Just had a look at the mp3s on site and I am not sure why people would feel that they are not well known tunes. There are lots of session standards in there. Anyway, surely the whole point of it is to open it up to new tunes. Does it really matter if they are session standards or not? They automatically will be if people learn them and play them.
Anyway, if you are after volunteers I will gladly spend some time recording some of my favourite tunes on the whistle and they can be added to the collection.
Derek, why don't you add some as well? I am sure Jamie will.
If it ain't broke why fix it!
Yes there is always room for improvement (Moveable tables would be a good start!)
Whilst a warm-up sesh is a good idea in theory formalising sets of tunes would probably detract from what has been a fairly successful formula. To date the session has been a good mix of tunes and songs with a great range of instuments, which is one of the attractions of "oor sesh".
So far all of the comments have been about tunes and no mention of singers/songs.Generally the order for singers is pretty bad. As one of the NCR Rabble said on Thursday when asked to quieten down she said "this is a pub no a fecking library!No we don't want to sing in a library but some assistance from the "body of the kirk" could help the situation. Other than with one or two exceptions many instumentalists seem reluctant to accompany songs leaving the singer on their own.This can be off-puting for most. Most songs have reasonably simple tunes and choruses and if required singers would be happy to provide lyrics/tunes where anyone is unsure.
The Fish Sesh has developed naturally and if we can encourage more to join in, the better for all. We must maintain a good mix of tunes and songs and encourage all abilities. After all we had to start somewhere!
I agree with Pete re the songs. I think it'd be great to have more backing both from instruments and folk singing along. Its more fun if you take part.
Slán tamaillín
MK
Hi everyone
just thought I'd add my thoughts.
Re: Pre-session in the fish
I think the idea of the pre-session is good, but
I think it would be very difficult to delimit the end of the pre-session, especially to a newcomer and this could have a detrimental effect on the session. It may work better in another location before the fish (like a local cafe that was interested in some extra business - but I think we'd have to be up-front about the quality of the tunes)
Re: increasing the repertoire at the fish and learning specific sets. I agree with the whole organic development thing man you know. However, I must confess to having gotten into the groove of only playing certain tunes with each other. It can sometimes bring a real new edge to a tune to hear it in a new order. (Not in a fascist way though). Pass the tune (taking it in turns to play back to back tunes) can bring in old tunes in new places and new tunes as well. It's a great way of giving everyone a chance to start a tune and hear new tunes. My only worry is that sometimes it can be very hard to hear yourself in the fish, never mind one person playing a new tune.
Back to the note of learning tunes - does anyone object to being recorded and it being published on the website?
The session isn't a performance - we aren't there to please the onlookers, except in so much as to maintain the venue, and if we care about the music at all, the music should take care of that. Rather, a session is simply where we all meet to play the music we enjoy. For me, getting from the point of knowing nothing about traditional music, but enjoying the sound of it, to being a fully participating player in the session, has been immensely rewarding in its own right, as is every session in which the music speaks for itself. The first "X" times of being in the session, but only being able to play one tune (Rakish Paddy), was, for me, still enjoyable - partly because every time I played Rakish Paddy I grew in confidence, but also because I was in the midst of other people's music that I increasingly enjoyed and it was enough to be there. I'm not sure if any of you noticed, but I barely spoke to anyone in the session for the first year or two I was there - but it was never a negative experience!!!
The fishermans session could be made to be a much better environment to learn tunes, though a new venue with a better acoustic would definitely be better - and perhaps it is time to form a totally new session in addition or instead of the fish... ...the Ship seem willing!!
Some suggestions:
- Despite the punters, musical decibels are not the answer; it can make it difficult to hear yourself think let alone hear the person next to you play a tune; when you're learning this is totally hopeless, and when you're not it doesn't necessarily add to the enjoyment.
- Also, the tunes come across so much clearer if you don't play when you don't know the tune or chords, than just to play random stuff that gradually gets closer to the mark. Derek might suggest here that knowing the chords in advance is better, but i'm not sure thats true. The chords played by a standard guitar, compared to those played by DADGAD/DADDAD guitars and an occasional bouzouki, can be varied hugely from each other within the course of any one tune. Even the implied tonic beginning of a tune could be deliberately accompanied by a relative minor (in a major keyed tune), a power chord or by a "Sus" chord for effect. There are many chord choices, which are far from random, and which, changed each time through a tune, can totally transform the sound produced. A dictat here would surely produce a sterile effect.
- Sometimes... ...more is less. While we might all know Michael's Mazurka, its much more likely to bring a tear to my eye if I hear a single fiddle playing it and one person accompanying it, than if 4 fiddles play it and several guitars accompany it - which is probably the effect that playing a tune (written by a very young man who died tragically young) might be expected to have. I'd wager, it'd be easier to learn, and certainly easier to record to learn later (or put on the website for that matter). Isn't it also just damn rude to play over someone else when you don't actually know the music?
- Speed is often the result of nerves, certainly in my case, and i'm often guilty of going way too fast in tunes. But, if everyone makes an effort to hold the pace back and particularly to keep it steady, then not only does it make it easier to play with the melody line and chords to have fun with the music, but also it makes the tunes infinitely easier to learn by ear.
- Another thing that would also make a big difference to being able to learn tunes, is to not limit the tunes to twice through. Go for at least 3, and if its going well, why not more? I don't agree with rules, but if there were a rule, I think that playing tunes more than three times wouldn't be a bad one.
I would be happy to try and put some more tunes on the website, and record more from the fish, but, because of some of the above reasons, the quality of material I have recorded so far isn't nearly good enough to be able to learn off. One thing we could do, is have a get together for a day in a studio, or any venue (as Kevin and I both have some good recording gear), and we could put together a good number of sets representing the variety of tunes we all play, and put them on the website. That might at least be a start?!
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/15418
There seems to be a related thread on The Session just now if folk are interested - at least until the topic of food sidetracked it! :-S
This link isn't irrelevant after what I was just saying as well:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/15408
I forgot to mention the problem of modality above, and the fact that in many of the tunes we play, because they are based on modal scales / pipe scales, they don't yield to an interpretation of major / minor chords (which is why sometimes the open tuned instruments fare better in finding the accompanying chords).
Another great link discussing beginners starting sets of tunes!
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/15385
Moving on from the sets of tunes issue, there are clearly other issues being hinted at above, and Paul has written a post to the forum, to try and get some of these aired:
http://www.acousticecosse.org/Forum/read.php?2,300,300#300
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